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Quora: 印尼高鐵選擇中國而非日本,錯了嗎?

Is Indonesia making a mistake to choose China instead of Japan for their new high speed rail project?

印度尼西亞選擇中國,而非日本,幫他們修建新的高鐵,錯了嗎?

quora網友討論:

Mitchell Wang, IBDP student and about to NYU

Answered Feb 29 2016

Mistake? There is no mistake in international relationship. There is only advantages and disadvantages. Every action has its own reasons.

錯?國際關系總無謂對錯,只有優劣。每個決定都是有原因的。

Back to the question.

First let's talk about high speed rail itself. Although the quality of rail from Japan is better than that from China, but the rail from China is also very good. However, have you ever thought about the price? It is much more lower! For Indonesia which is a developing country, she should concern about price

回到問題本身。

首先,我們來談談高鐵。雖然日本的高鐵技術由于中國,但是中國的高鐵已經很好了。然而,你考慮過價格嗎?中國的高鐵可是便宜的多!對印尼這個發展中國家來說,價格也是一個考慮因素。

The core of this problem is not the railway itself!

Every action from any country has its politic reason. As an country which is familiar with the United States, Indonesia used to have many problems with China. It is a excellent time for two countries to ease the relationship.

這個問題的核心不是高鐵本身!

任何國家的任何決定都有政治因素。作為一個和美國關系密切的國家,印尼過去和中國曾有過很多摩擦?,F在是兩國之間緩和關系的大好時機。

 

Richard Chapman, Lived for a while in China

Answered Feb 29 2016 · Author has 525 answers and 227.4k answer views

I believe so, and given my prejudices, I feel the answer is self-evident:

我認為是錯的,雖然我有偏見,但我覺得答案不言而喻:

Anyone who has ridden the Japanese Shinkansen cannot help but think that the build quality, engineering and operations are superior in every way. The safety record speaks for itself, and in a developing country where every other aspect of life involves sometimes dangerous compromises, it would be an object of pride to Indonesians to have a system built by the Japanese, unlike what happened at Wenzhou and the ongoing concerns about the quality of Chinese concreting of bridges.

任何一個坐過日本新干線的人都認為,它的建設質量、工程設計和運營在各個方面都非常優秀的。安全記錄不言而喻,在一個發展中國家,生活充滿妥協,有時候這個妥協還有可能是危險的。讓日本打造這樣一個系統將是印尼人民的一個驕傲,不像曾經發生在溫州的事故那樣,也不像總是讓人擔憂的中國橋梁的質量。

Both countries, as I understand it, offered generous concessional financing, but do expect to involve their own workforces in construction, which I think given Indonesia's current standard of development, is necessary. Any perception that Japan ought to be the more expensive option, like choosing a Japanese car over a Chinese one, is not well founded in this case

我能理解,這兩個國家都向印尼提供了慷慨的優惠融資方案,但希望在建設中使用他們自己的建設工人,考慮到印尼目前的發展水平,這是必要的。在這種情況下,任何認為日本應該是更昂貴的選擇(比如選擇日本車而不是中國車)的看法都是不成立的。

Japan experiences co ption at senior levels, but is not ridden with the systemic co ption at every level, as China is. It would be to the Indonesian's best interest to ensure that ethical business behaviour is observed at every stage of design, construction and operation, even if we can be sure that some LDP politicians in Japan are bound to be profitting from it personally.

日本經歷了高層的附敗,但并沒有像中國那樣在各個層面都充斥著系統性的附敗。確保在設計、建設和運營的每個階段都遵守道德商業行為,這才符合印尼的最大利益。即使我們可以確信,日本的一些自民黨政客肯定獲得個人利益。

And it would transmit a clear and recognisable signal across Asia - that quality is not the preserve of the Europeans; that bullying tactics and endemic co ption does not have to be the way of life.

另外,這也將在亞洲傳遞一種清晰可識的信號,質量不是歐洲人的專利;這種恃強凌弱的策略和地方性的附敗并不一定是生活的本來面貌。

 

Iqbal Ezra, An Obeserver, A dreamer and A Builder

Updated Apr 16 2017 · Author has 213 answers and 98.8k answer views

As an Indonesian this is my answer.

作為印尼人,以下是我的回答:

Its baffling to me reading the answers given none of them are Indonesians, none of them know the country apart from the so called “misconceptions” and would quickly believe the first negativity that pops up, but hey this is Quora so everyone that think they got a brain and can read and write can pitch in.

令人困惑的是,我閱讀了其他人的回復,沒有一個時印尼人回答的。這些人中除了所謂“錯誤想法”,對印尼一無所知。他們很快就對第一個彈出的消極回復表示相信、贊同,但嘿,這是果殼網耶,每個人都覺得他們自己擁有一個會讀會寫能參與其中的大腦。

A mistake or not would not be apparent until the lines have been completed and fully operational. So don’t get to carried away by this whole HSR image boosting thing.

錯誤與否,要等到高鐵完工,正式通行之后才能看清楚。所以,不要只是看到高鐵效果圖就忘乎所以了。

Indonesia chose China because of two very simple reason. Closer partnership and more favourable financial incentives. Everyone in Indonesia knows that the Japanese have better tech know how in HSR, but they are stingy in the tech transfer side and their terms forced the Indonesian to favour China.

印尼之所以選擇中國,原因很簡單。為了更緊密的伙伴關系和更有利的財政激勵。印尼人都知道,日本人有更好的高鐵技術,但他們在技術轉讓方面很小氣,他們的條款迫使印尼支持中國。

But all is not lost on Japan. A second line between Jakarta and Surabaya has recently been agreed upon and the Japanese are set to developed the line and they learned the lesson from being beaten by China in the Jakarta to Bandung line.

但日本也不是一無所獲。雅加達和泗水之間的第二條線路最近已經敲定,日本人也準備參與競標這條線路,他們從錯失雅加達至萬隆的高鐵建設中吸取了教訓。

So if you think Indonesia is wooed by China alone than that is not the case. Indonesia is dancing with both countries.

因此,如果你認為印尼只是被中國所吸引,其實事實并非如此。印尼正和這兩個國家共舞。

A mistake or not only time will tell and in the mean time we as Indonesians prefer to partner with whom ever is less biased and less hypocritical and treat us as equals.

錯誤與否只能交由時間來告訴我們,在這段時間里,我們印尼人更愿意和那些不那么有偏見、不那么虛偽、平等對待我們的人合作。

Lets face it Indonesia is far from perfect and so is the rest of the world, but at least we are not “a stuck up jerk nation that point fingers at others while hiding and ignoring the very same problem domestically and acting like the saviour of the world”

讓我們面對現實吧,印尼遠非十全十美,世界其他國家也都如此,但至少我們不是“一個傲慢的混蛋國家,對別人指指點點,同時卻隱瞞和忽視自身同樣的問題,表現得自己像個救世主”

 

Banh Dau

Answered Nov 20 2017 · Author has 535 answers and 125.7k answer views

I don’t know about Indonesia, but in Vietnam, many projects in Hanoi are being built by Chinese contractors, and there are regrets now, because of delays, cost overrun, quality and safety issues. While in Saigon, projects being built by Japanese firms experience very few of those problems. So even though the Chinese firms got the initial bids lower in price than Japanese firms, in the end, it may prove to be more expensive, with lower quality.

我對印尼不了解,但在越南,大多數河內的工程都是中國施工隊修建的,現在很多人因為工程延期,預算超標,質量安全隱患等等問題開始后悔。在西貢,日本人城建的工程很少遇到這些問題。所以即使中國企業一開始用比日本企業低的價格招標,最終造價可能更高,質量更差。

 

Samuel Anggono, lives in Surabaya, Indonesia

Answered Nov 20 2017 · Author has 123 answers and 5.4k answer views

No. They made the right choice. China goods not always bad. They can and always produce high grade products for their own country and only make bad products because the market demands it. People actually ask for a Mercedes Benz with the price of Avanza as figure of speech. And in terms of politics, China is a rising dragon while America is a dying old man with past glory. And Japan is just (sorry), not as great as America even. And Japan experienced growth stagnation, it worrysome that they could still maintain the market demand of higher and higher quality with their dying market growth

沒有錯,印尼做了正確的選擇。中國的商品并不都是差的。他們能夠而且一直為本國生產高質量商品,只是向對劣質商品有需求的市場提供這類商品。事實上,打個比方,人們想用阿萬扎的價格買到奔馳車。就政治因素而言,中國是崛起的巨龍,而美國已是不復往昔輝煌的遲暮之年。日本只是(對不起)沒有美國那么偉大。日本經歷了經濟增長停滯,他們本國市場垂死掙扎,他們擔心是否能維持對越來越高的質量的市場需求。

 

Danny Wang, I rejected the CCP to join them.

Answered Feb 29, 2016 · Author has 62 answers and 42.7k answer views

My answer is simple: You get what you pay for. Questions of the same nature could be:

我的回答很簡單:一分錢一分貨。同樣的問題可能是:

Is it a mistake to buy a 500-dollar Asus instead of a 2000-dollar Alienware, since basically they're both laptops with pretty similar functions?

既然都是筆記本,功能也相差不大,那買500美金的華碩,而不是2000美金的戴爾外星人,錯了嗎?

Is it a mistake to buy a 5,000-dollar Toyota instead of a 200,000 dollar Land Rover, since basically they're both cars with pretty similar functions?

既然都是汽車,功能都差不多,那買5000美金的豐田,而不是200000美金的路虎,錯了嗎?

Is it a mistake to buy a 50-dollar made-in-China watch instead of a 5,000-dollar Swiss luxury watch, since basically they're both watches with pretty similar functions?

既然都是手表,功能都差不多,那買50美金的中國手表,而不是5000美金的瑞士高檔手表,錯了嗎?

The list can go on endlessly- but you get my idea, it's all about affordability.

這種問題數不勝數,但你心里自有答案,看你能不能買得起罷了。

 

Darwin Sujaya, lives in Bandung, West Java, Indonesia

Answered Nov 20, 2017 · Author has 266 answers and 87.7k answer views

No.

China do have the largest railway network. They have tons of experience. If you ever use their railway you will know it is a good efficient railway. Right now Japan and China competing to invest in infrastructure. It is a good idea for our go nment to use this to our advantage like ask them to transfer the technology.

沒錯。

中國擁有最長的鐵路網。他們經驗豐富。如果你坐過他們的火車,你就會知道這有多高效?,F在日本和中國在投資基建方面進行競爭。我們的政府利用這一點為我們爭取利益,比如要求他們轉讓高鐵技術,這是很好的主意。

 

Maulana Akbar, lives in Jakarta

Answered Jan 19, 2017

Honestly, I totally upset with go nment that pick China than Japan. As we know, Japan is more established-technology than China. As well as China — in many people`s perspective — has bad quality products. Though I believe go nment had carefully consideration while making that decision.

老實說,我對政府選擇中國而非日本,感到不安。我們都知道,日本的技術水平超過中國。在很多人眼中,中國制造質量堪憂。雖然我相信政府會做出決定時會謹慎考慮的。

 

Jiehui Huang

Answered Nov 23, 2017 · Upvoted by Matthew Jacobus, lived in Jakarta (2000-2017)

Yes.

Singapore uses Chinese techs for it’s MRT system. And as all know, Singapore's MRT is known for being a huge mess. Delays every two days or so, for 15–20 minutes up to several hours. Collisions (which the media is trying to cover up), flooded tunnels and service disruptions that happens about once every week.

While Japan apologizes because one of their trains is 20 SECONDS EARLY!

You decide.

是個錯誤。

新加坡采用中國技術修建地鐵?,F在大家都知道的,新加坡的地鐵以混亂著稱。每兩天或每幾天總會出現延誤,從15-20分鐘到數個小時都有可能。撞車(媒體會想辦法遮掩),隧道淹水,服務中斷,每周都會發生。

日本呢,甚至為列車提前20秒到站,公開道歉。

所以,答案你自己決定咯。

 

Zhiqiang Tang

Answered Jan 6, 2018

the UK made the opposite choice, see what happened for yourself, High-speed train delayed on first journey

英國做了相反的選擇,看看發生了什么,高鐵首趟運行就出現延誤。

 

Terry Haas, M.A. from Western Illinois University (1981)

Answered Nov 20, 2017 · Author has 396 answers and 26.2k answer views

In light of Japan’s extensive experience with high speed rail, it could well prove to be a mistake in choosing China over Japan. However, since China’s has engaged in targeted corporate espionage they have been able to improve their R & D, thus improving quality of the products they now manufacture. I think the most significant factor might be that Japan has a record of excellent tech support for their products… I don’t think China is quite there yet. Let the rider beware.

鑒于日本在高速鐵路方面的豐富經驗,選擇中國而不選日本,這可能注定是一個錯誤。然而,由于中國已經進行了有針對性的商業間諜活動,他們已經改善技術研發,從而提高產品的質量。我認為最重要的因素可能是日本的產品技術支持非常優秀,中國還沒有達到這個水平。讓坐車的人小心點。

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